A Game of Thrones: A Song of Ice and Fire NWN2 Persistent World

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#1 2008-09-09 09:35:08

Rusty
Head Game Master

Ethos: Level Range

For level range, I think there's an awful lot to be said for having a soft cap on levels around the 10-12 mark. XP gain rates can be tailored so that by the time PCs are around these levels, progression is all but non existent. There are several reasons for this. From a design perspective, creating balanced, static content for high or epic levels is exceptionally difficult; creating said content in a world that also includes low and mid levels is even harder. Also, the power gap between high/epic and low levels is all-but unbridgeable. I think it is also preferable for PCs, when they into their mid-levels, to be focussed on 'story' and 'plot', i.e. playing a creative role within the PW, than their individual 'adventures'. Level 10 fighters should be guard captains or mercenary commanders; Level 10 wizards should be teaching PC apprentices; Level 10 clerics founding temples, and so forth. This kind of approach also feeds into my points about a player-driven world. By level 7 and higher, PCs can act themselves as quest-givers and move the world on, in the absence of DMs; this kind of activity, which has been terribly rare elsewhere, seems like one of the keys to a self-sustaining PW.

Cipher wrote:

I'm not fond of level limits, partly because I know that a lot of the fun of playing a game like D&D is in growing the character. It's nice to have pleateaus in the development, but I'm just not fond of a cap, either imposed as a hard limit or a gain limiter that makes it all but impossible to progress.

Having said that, I like ideas that promote player-to-player interaction. Ignoring the potential practical limitations of the idea for now, what do you think of awarding XP for levels beyond 12 solely through these kinds of interactions, such as apprenticeships, quest giving, and fulfilling other IC duties appropriate to characters of that level? The XP cap then works to its intended effect - encouraging interactions in a player driven world but without diminishing the player's interest in their character by prematurely ending its development.

Perhaps an XP system that means that, at higher levels, significant gain becomes DM & plot dependent. Essentially, a kind of soft cap - I'll reference CoA again here, as they - technically - go level 1 - 20, but levelling slows down seriously as PCs go through their mid levels and it is very rare that PCs get beyond 11 or 12. CoA seems to still have a plethora of PCs of levels 8-11, for whom progression is simply no longer an issue: they are tough enough to make it out of most dangerous situations if they want, they have the skills to do most of the things they want, and they can focus instead simply on story. And, of course, just because the engine goes 1 - 30, I'm not sure that means it has to be mimicked.

Also, in a permadeath setting, the level gap gets heavily accentuated if you have smooth progression. I recall my own PC (Elf Fighter 8 / WM 1 / Ranger 1) being/feeling absolutely pointless when partied with Alara's Fighter 14 DC 5 Wizard 1. The gap is just so huge that lower level PCs are almost entirely redundant - even when those PCs are themselves significantly powerful. High level PCs can take out entire armies, raze towns, end plots with a single strike, and so on - it's almost impossible to provide for in a true RP PW. For instance, if your villain is a local necromancer (let's say, Jim, a level 9 wizard) who is creating a secret undead army to overrun a village, and the main protagonists are a group of PCs of level 3-6, all's good and fair, but then Bob the Level 20 PC walks into town, and with a bat of his eyelashes annihilates Jim and his army. Bob's a LG Good Guy and it would be totally OOC for him to simply ignore Jim and his activities - but in order to make Jim proof against epic PCs him - and all other villains - have to become epic themselves. In the alternative, if there is a soft cap of 9-12 (i.e. things get real slow, advancement-wise), you know what the maximum 'random' power variables are and can adjust for them accordingly.

It's also incredibly hard to have static content for levels 1 - 20 without just having *portal to hell, pls go fight demons* and so forth.

And, of course, more generally, the d20 mechanics get seriously broken after the mid-levels, tho' the extent to which we adapt the GoO ruleset may have an impact on this.

 

#2 2008-09-12 13:52:02

Cipher
Project Lead

Re: Ethos: Level Range

An interesting excerpt from AGoT d20 RPG:

It is suggested that Game of Thrones Campaign characters begin at 5th to 8th Level. Characters who are well established should be 9th to 12th Level, and characters who are at the pinnacle of their power should be 13th to 16th Level.

 

#3 2008-09-14 10:38:13

therianthrope
AGoT Builder

Re: Ethos: Level Range

I'm a huge fan of starting from square one.  You can easily script it to make the first level or two (or three, etc.) to go as quick as you want, but I think if an RPer logs in for the first time and *bubbalabling!!* is suddenly 5th level, they'll think "wha-a-a-t?" and become bored because you don't have to do anything to become considerably powerful.  Plus this attracts powerbuilders.

 

#4 2008-09-15 11:48:50

Cipher
Project Lead

Re: Ethos: Level Range

We're definitely starting at level 1.

 

#5 2008-09-15 13:17:31

Diwall
AGoT Scripter

Re: Ethos: Level Range

I completely agree : starting at level 1 and then working you way up. You have to earn every inch of XP needed to level up.


"Life is pain, Highness. Anyone who says differently is selling something."
Westley - Princess Bride
 

#6 2010-07-08 14:06:23

Hooloovoo
Smallfolk

Re: Ethos: Level Range

Very interesting thoughts. It makes good sense to keep the level cap low as Rusty suggests as balance is easier to maintain. I feel that it does, however, detract something from the fun of developing/strengthening your character so I also like Cipher's post that refers to the recommendation from AGoT d20 RPG. Considering what's been posted before, what I would like to see is roughly something like the following: all players start as children in a separate area of the world which is set 10 years behind the main world. The player then levels there from levels 1 to 5. At level 5 they enter the main world and can join up for training at the various guilds/tribes/professions etc. Training (no serious risk of death) will then take them from levels 5 to 8, at which stage they are out on their own. Levelling up above level 12-13 should be very slow and should almost grind to a halt at level 15. Players can still earn XP but it will require a lot of time and effort to get to level 16 by which time the character is almost on par with the most powerful NPCs in the world.

 

#7 2010-07-09 10:34:52

Cipher
Project Lead

Re: Ethos: Level Range

It makes sense of course, especially in terms of progression, that low level characters would be children. But age doesn't really have an effect in the game. Still, I like the idea and we can actually scale the size of characters with scripting - so as time passes, characters age and they grow!! Talk about realism, eh? smile I think there may also be attribute adjustments for aging which we can look into, but it's really a minor point.

I've shared my thoughts on XP in another thread so I won't go into detail about it here.

 

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